Leigh Hatcher
Without exaggerating, this podcast has the very great potential to transform the way we relate to people, across the board, professionally and personally. It all stems from a book written by Dr. Jim Knight, research associate from the Kansas Center for Research on Learning and senior partner of the Instructional Coaching Group, who also partners with Growth Coaching International. The book title promises much, Better Conversations: Coaching Ourselves, and Each Other to Be more Credible, Caring and Connected. The way we connect and communicate is foundational to the human condition. I think you'll be surprised how revealing this conversation is about just how we do that, and how we can do it a whole lot better wherever we are. I'm Leigh Hatcher. Dr. Jim Knight joins me on Zoom, along with Gray Ryan, a former teacher and secondary school principal, now GCI Senior consultant based in Victoria.

Leigh Hatcher
Jim and Gray, welcome.

Gray Ryan
Pleasure.

Dr. Jim Knight
It's my pleasure. I'm excited to have this conversation. I'm missing Australia, so this is a great way for me to connect.

Leigh Hatcher
Great for you to be here.

Dr. Jim Knight:
I did have Vegemite this morning for breakfast though, just to lay out my-

Leigh Hatcher:
Respect.

Dr. Jim Knight:
credibility as at least somewhat an Australian person.

Leigh Hatcher:
You'll get on. Why did you feel the need to address communication dynamics in this way, in the first place?

Dr. Jim Knight
My first book, Instructional Coaching, back in 2006, it talked about communication and initially, I was just going to write sort of a workbook to look at some basic things around communication, how we listen and how we build connection. That content had always sort of resonated with people when I shared it, but as I started to create the workbook, it just kind of took over. It's almost like the book wrote itself. It seemed to be something that needed to be written, and people have really resonated. It's probably my most popular book since I wrote it.

Leigh Hatcher
Why do you think it was so needed at this time, Jim?

Dr. Jim Knight:
I just heard someone the other day say that "courtesy is a word that doesn't mean anything anymore in our society", and I'm coming to you from America, but we're seeing a lot of really difficult conversation to watch, a lot of profound lack of respect, and putting winning above all as opposed to relationships, and I don't think we're in the world just to beat up on each other, I think we're in the world to connect. I don't think we're at our best unless we connect.

Leigh Hatcher:
That's certainly the same here.

Dr. Jim Knight:
I really see the book as a book about connecting with other people, building relationships, and then that means it's called better conversations because we can have better conversations, but the kind of conversations we have, they're what Paulo Freire would call mutually humanizing. We're better for having had the conversation.

Leigh Hatcher:
You say you're aiming at communication that's more credible, caring and connected. Why do you think we aren't as credible, caring or connected as we could be? Is there something underlying all of this?

Dr. Jim Knight:
Well, I think even if we were great at those things, there'd still be room for growth. The conversation is so fundamental to a fulfilling life. You know, we live our lives in conversation. If we can improve our conversations just a tiny little bit, we improve our lives a tiny little bit. We could make a 10% leap in the quality of our conversations. Not that you could quantify it, but you make that kind of gain, we'd move forward. But, I mean, we're in a time now where you watch people on TV and interrupting as a culturally acceptable norm.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes.

Dr. Jim Knight:
Talking over top of people and listening is almost like a revolutionary act. The conversation we see around us in sports and politics, it's just, it seems to be getting worse, not better. And so in our own lives, I think we need to do what we can and then enough people do it in their own lives it will happen in the greater society.

Leigh Hatcher:
Jim, you speak about beliefs about communication and how they influence actions. What exactly do you mean by that?

Dr. Jim Knight:
Well, I think there are beliefs and their habits and their skills. So if I believe, for example, that I should affirm other people or I believe that I should live a life of service, then every time I have an interaction with somebody, I have that belief to guide me. So if I believe that I should affirm other people, I'm not going to be making moralistic judgments about them.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes.

Dr. Jim Knight:
I'm going to try to see them in the best possible light. If I, if I have a belief that I should live out for the good of other people, then in the moment when I make a decision, not that we always do it, we're human, so we're imperfect and we screw up all more than we probably do well, but at least we have that belief it's something to strive for.

Leigh Hatcher:
Don't think we think much about how we converse or how we have our conversations and that we need to learn stuff about this whole arena.

Dr. Jim Knight:
Well, if you think about how important the way you communicate is to your life,

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes.

Dr. Jim Knight:
Communications with your partner, with your children, with the people you work with, the people in your community, and so much of however you want to determine success or failure is going to be related to those conversations. Just little things in a marriage can make a huge difference. Just being aware of your partner's need for connection or letting them saying thank you or just being present to them

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes.

Dr. Jim Knight:
Can make a huge difference. So, people do all kinds of things to improve themselves. They take courses, they work out, they go to the gym, they're always involved. You know, if you look at improvement in your lines, people that, there are millions of books out there on how to get better, but they don't necessarily focus on conversations almost like the air we breathe.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes.

Dr. Jim Knight:
And if you're going to focus on one thing, it's that. Now, there are a lot of books about how to have a hard, difficult, crucial conversation where you have to get a message through and those books are really, really helpful. But I think what makes this book a little bit different, it's more about how to build connections and build relationships and listen to people. It's not so much about having a tough conversation. It's really about, I guess not to sound too soft, but a loving conversation.

Leigh Hatcher:
Gray, how did first come into contact with better conversations?

Gray Ryan:
Well, Jim Knight was a keynote speaker at our biannual coaching conference in Sydney and he presented a one day version of Better Conversations for some of our Australian facilitation team as we were planning to offer it as one of our new programs in 2020 as part of that partnership, as-

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes, yes.

Gray Ryan:
-You know with Jim's instructional coaching group and I was immediately taken by the program content and method of delivery and realized just how well it would fit in with our current suite of programs, which as you know, are all about enhancing the quality of conversations in educational communities. So how can we have even better conversations in our communities? But as well as being able to use the learnings from this program in our professional lives, the thing that really resonated with me was how we could relate this to our personal lives. So much of what we covered in the program made me really reflect on how well I was communicating with my family and friends and how it could become even better at that. So as Jim says, effective communication is an essential skill for a fulfilled life. So if I can improve our communication skills just a little bit, we can improve our quality of life both, professionally and personally. And that's what's got me really excited about delivering this program.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes. That's why I said in the intro it to cover those two arenas is-

Gray Ryan:
Yeah.

Leigh Hatcher: -quite transformative.

Gray Ryan:
The program is based on the premise that to be an authentic communicator, we have to know what we believe about communication and we had to act in a way that's consistent with those beliefs. So, in a nutshell, the program helps us become aware of what our current beliefs and habits are and introduces us to better ways of communicating and gives us plenty of opportunities to practice these new ways of communicating. The program is also, in terms of delivery, very similar to our own programs. It's not a whole lot of facilitator standing at the front delivery, but there are lots of activities, lots of opportunities for interaction with fellow participants to practice, I think, these better conversations

Leigh Hatcher:
Jim, you say that schools are only as good as the conversations in them. Can you tell me why you say that?

Dr. Jim Knight:
If you have a team of people and they don't trust each other, they're not going to be learning from each other. If they're not having mutually humanizing or supportive or encouraging conversations. If people don't trust each other, not much learning is going to take place. They're also not going to feel supported and that lack of support, that lack of learning, it's going to show up in the classroom too. But if you have a school where teachers truly trust each other and they have the best interest of each other at heart and they listened to each other and they learn from each other, well then you've got a school where learning is going to be happening. So to me, if you want to establish the conditions for, for professional growth and professional learning in a school, the first thing is people have to be having respectful, supportive, encouraging learning conversation.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes. In any workplace, really. Gray, how do better conversations fit in with the suite of existing programs at GCI?

Gray Ryan:
We had initially presented this as an advanced program. The reason being for that is that our current GCI accredited coaches have to maintain their accreditation by attending further programs. This is a new program that we can offer to those experienced coaches who've done a lot of our programs in the past so that they've got something new to do to enhance their skills further and maintain their accreditation. However, having said that, there are no prerequisites with the better conversation's program. So in reality, anyone who is interested in improving their communication skills can register for the program, whether or not they've done any of their other type of programs. So that's another thing that I really like about it. The fact that it can cater to a wide range of potential participants.

Leigh Hatcher:
Great stuff. I'm putting my hand up. Our better conversations has been adapted for an Australian context. That's important to say. How's it meeting a need specifically in Australia? Gray?

Gray Ryan:
Well, look, I think the need is meeting in Australia is really similar to the reasons why the team established this program in the first place in America because Jim says we're facing a communication crisis.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yeah.

Gray Ryan:
And that we're finding it harder to communicate and connect with each other, even though we have so many ways of communicating.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes.

Gray Ryan:
In the digital age. I mean there is a polarization of views around today where divided camps are simply shouting each other down.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes, yeah.

Gray Ryan:
People are basically not showing respect for other people's views and they're quick to interrupt when others are speaking. Improve communication skills is also central to school improvement. For example, when teachers listen actively to students, work on developing trust, when they ask better questions and foster dialogue with their students then their students will feel safe and more open to learning. And furthermore, when better conversations are introduced with teachers, it improves teacher collaboration, encourages more sharing of ideas, improves team meetings, because colleagues will be listening to each other.

Leigh Hatcher:
Yes.

Gray Ryan:
And engaging in meaningful dialogue in an atmosphere of trust and respect. We've made some changes to some of Jim's slides and videos to make them more suited to an Australian audience, but apart from that it's still focused on how we can apply this to both our professional and personal lives.

Leigh Hatcher:
you're listening to a coaching in education podcast, conversation with Gray Ryan and Dr. Jim Knight on better conversations. At the core of all this is what Jim Knight defines as six beliefs and 10 habits that can achieve these better conversations.

Dr. Jim Knight:
First belief is "Equality", which means that I don't think I'm better than the other person. It doesn't mean we treat people everybody the same. It means we think everybody counts the same. The second belief is "I want to hear what other people have to say", which means I think the person I'm talking to that their opinion counts and I'm present in the conversation and trying to take it in. I'm a good listener in the conversation.

Dr. Jim Knight:
The third belief is that we believe "People should have a lot of autonomy". Reality is people do have a lot of autonomy. We just don't necessarily acknowledge it. They're going to do what they're going to do anyway, so it's kind of, let's be transparent about the fact that when people are told what to do, they're less likely to embrace it.

Dr. Jim Knight:
Fourth belief is "I don't judge other people." That doesn't mean I don't perceive reality. It doesn't mean I don't talk about reality. It means I don't moralistically judge other people. I don't tell them they're a bad person or they're incompetent and I don't put myself up above them and look down on them and say, how? How could they do that? Rather than judging them. I affirm them. I see the good in them and I let them know that I see the good. Fifth belief is conversation should be back and forth, which is to say it should be dialogical. Which is to say that I let go of the notion that I have to be right so we can do what's right and what's doing what's right is to have a conversation where both our brains are engaged in the conversation. And then the last belief is kind of a combination of all of them, but that conversation should be life affirming.

Dr. Jim Knight:
That means, in part, that we feel better for having had the conversation, but it also means that we feel like the conversation has been a good use of our time. Then say, looking back, Oh, that was exactly what I should have done. That's the kind of conversations we should have. And you know, you're given the brevity of life, we should be trying to have those conversations where we say, Oh that I'm really glad we had that talk. That's what we're striving for.

Dr. Jim Knight:
Now. The beliefs are things that sort of play in the background of all the habits. The idea is people could work on some and pick one thing to work on, but the first two habits kind of go together. It's listening and empathy and so I really want to hear what the other person has to say and I understand their emotions and I understand their perspective or their needs.

Dr. Jim Knight:
The third belief is fostering dialogue. I act in a way, I communicate in a way that lets the other person know that I want to hear what they have to say. I want to think with them. The fourth habit is asking better questions. It's really about asking questions that encourage the other person to speak. We're not leading them somewhere or asking them about genuine curiosity and there's different questions that help you be more effective at asking questions. The fifth habit is building emotional connections. And there I really lean on John Gottman's research and what I think Gottman helps us do is have a vocabulary for understanding what makes emotional connection work. And when we have that vocabulary, we're able to see the things we do that encourage or inhibit connection. And so that's the idea of understanding emotional connection and an emotional connection is what makes the relationship work.

Dr. Jim Knight:
And then one thing that does build emotional connection is the sixth habit and the sixth habit is being a witness to the good. Communicating what's going well, and often the way we do it doesn't work particularly well. And so when we communicate, what I call being a witness to the good, it's important that we say it in a way that it's actually going to sink in. More often than not, the way we share positive information just bounces up people like Teflon, they want it to be more like Velcro. We wanted to stick when we share something positive. The seventh habit is "finding common ground". It's looking for ways in which we're similar. Not to say that we compromise our values. In fact, just the opposite. If we can establish our commonality, then we have the chance to talk about our differences. But if we start with our differences, we'll never get very far.

Dr. Jim Knight:
So as human beings walking around on the world, we have an awful lot in common and we start with trying to figure out that, establish our commonality so we can talk about our differences.

Dr. Jim Knight:
The next habit is to redirect toxic words and emotions. Part of that is to recognize that to have a better conversation, when we hear a hateful, say, racist or sexist or homophobic comment, we need to be able to redirect that conversation. You want it to be that when people are around you, they know, Oh, that conversation doesn't fly with that person. We need to redirect toxic conversations, but we also have to pay attention to our emotions because our emotions can either inhibit us from saying what needs to be said, or they can lead us to say things we deeply regret.

Dr. Jim Knight:
And then the last habit is about trust, which is probably the most important one without trust not much else happens. And trust is really, some basic things, but people know you're being fair and honest and transparent and they know you have their best interests at heart. It's hard to trust somebody unless you know that they care about your best interests. And those are the habits and beliefs.

Leigh Hatcher:
Jim, I know that you've had a wave of a very positive and at times quite moving response to the book, to the workshops. Is there one particular story that stands out for you on which we could end to just see where the rubber hits the road, how this works out in practice?

Dr. Jim Knight:
There had been a lot of stories I'm grateful for. Honestly, I think it's improved my relationships. Having the chance to think about this and write about this as helped me, mind you there was a pretty low baseline to start with. I've had a long way to go, but you know, we had a fellow from Texas, he was an instructional coach as instructional coach in Texas, and he texted me or sent me a message on Twitter and then we ended up meeting and Jenny, who coauthored the reflection guide was with me when we met him and he said he'd always felt kind of distant from his father. His father was a Marine, he'd done three tours of duty. He's kind of a very cut and dried sort of fellow and he never really felt he could connect with his father, so he convinced his father to read better conversations with them and he said you know, my dad is not the kind of guy who's going to go for this stuff.

Dr. Jim Knight:
He thought at first it was kind of hokey and so forth, but as a loving father, he agreed to do it and, with tears in his eyes, this guy told us that my relationships never been the way it is as my dad and I got into it, became really aware of how our relationship works and we transformed our relationship. He said, I've never been closer to my father than I am now, and it's because of this book. Now it may not be, been because of the book, it may be that they, they started to really reflect on how they converse, but that's kind of the idea anyway. We want people to recognize how important it is and to do what they can to have better conversations.

Leigh Hatcher:
There are great stories and great wisdom. Jim Knight, thank you so much indeed and Gray. Thank you so much. It's been a tremendous conversation and I'm sure a great use and help to our listeners. Thank you so much you two for joining us.

Dr. Jim Knight:
It's my pleasure. I love talking with you guys. I hope you have a great year. Thanks.

Leigh Hatcher:
You've been listening to the coaching in education podcast series. I'm Leigh Hatcher.