Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Hello and welcome to the Coaching in Education podcast series.
I'm Leigh Hatcher.

I'm in conversation with Alison Gambino, Deputy Principal of Killara High School in Sydney, whose school is part of a really strategic group of schools doing some significant things with coaching.

So, here's the executive summary of Killara High…

Alison Gambino:
Killara High School is a comprehensive secondary school with an enrolment of approximately 1600 students and 105 teachers.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Which you can hear in the background.

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I mean this is a real school

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely.

The school has a proud tradition of academic excellence. We're very focused on student learning and engagement, teacher professional learning and student wellbeing.Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay. Tell us about the partnerships which Killara High is involved, because it's a really strategic initiative.

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely.

We operate within four partnerships. The Killara School's partnership, we call it the KSP, is the partnership with our six feeder primary schools and the majority of our students actually went to those schools - the students that come in, in Year 7.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
So you've got a bit of a vested interest really? Yes.

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely.

We also operate within a secondary school partnership called the NS5. We've got a City Country Alliance. The main focus there at the moment is with Menindee Central School and many of our students in Year 10 go there and actually complete their Service Learning Program at Menindee Central School.

The other one, which is a newer one, is with Macquarie University. So, we're part of the Department of Education Hub School Program and the idea is that we collaborate with Macquarie University to provide excellence in initial teacher education.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
And coaching has played a really significant role in all of these partnerships which we'll get to in a moment.

Alison Gambino:
Very much so.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
But I want to know about your own journey to coaching. How and also why did you pursue it?

Alison Gambino:
Difficult conversations is something ... I don't think anybody enjoys it-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Tick-

Alison Gambino:
But I absolutely dread them. And everyone wants to be better at them. It's just about having the confidence that you have the skills to actually carry the conversation successfully through to the end and have a good outcome for all concerned. And that's how I came to do the CAP (Coaching Accreditation Program) Course. And when I went to the Course, I didn't really know what to expect but it was so different to what I imagined.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Alison Gambino:
One thing I didn't realise is, it's completely selfish professional learning in that it's all about your development and as with normal professional learning, you can't do the professional learning, go back to school and coach somebody else because you don't have the skills.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Alison Gambino:
And it was just very, very valuable. I loved the fact that it was future focused and I loved the fact that it was about always looking at a positive outcome.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Can you tell me personally the kind of impact it had on you Alison?

Alison Gambino:
Just one simple example. I always used to say to students and to teachers and to people I know, ‘what's the worst thing that could happen’? I don't say that any more. I say, "What are you best hopes?" And then say, "What small steps could you take towards making that happen?"

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What a revelation -

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I mean that's a total change about.

Give us a couple of practical examples, how it changed your approach to education? Also in a way, the teaching and also leadership because you exercise all of those here and in your partnerships.

Alison Gambino:
In particular, it's changed the way as I said before, that I have conversations with students. Conversation with students who are struggling in particular.

In terms of leadership, we always look for opportunities to use coaching and coaching encourages what I call hard and uncomfortable thinking. You're asking lots of questions where ... They're very open questions - you can't answer them with a yes or a no.

We used it at our Executive Conference this year. We used a Start-Up to form a focus for our Executive Team for the rest of this year. It was a strategy ... I had never seen it modelled before. I hadn't been involved in it before and it was a risk but it was so successful and as a result we've now got a really clear direction for our Executive Team that aligns with our school plan and our milestones but it's also given us a really clear direction as where we want to go for our next school plan.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
So, take us beyond that. How have you been hooking in people within your partnerships?

It's really kind of developed, grown and flourished, hasn't it?

Alison Gambino:
Okay. We have an Executive Team of 23 head teachers and senior executive and we'd scheduled in the Executive Conference in Term 4 to devote ... And decided to devote two days to completing the Introduction to Growth Coaching, the Introduction to Growth Coaching Course because we thought that would be really valuable for our entire team.

The response to it was overwhelmingly positive but then we were left with the question of - how do we keep the momentum going? During 2015 part of the Department of Education reform agenda was the implementation of the Performance and Development Framework. So, every year each teacher sets three to five goals which link to a strategic direction and a standard descriptor from the Australian Professional Standards for Teachers.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Alison Gambino:
And the teacher needs to actually identify what their professional learning is that will support them to achieve their goals. Classroom observation forms a very significant part of this process and we identified that, as an excellent opportunity to use coaching.

The problem was, we have as I said before, a very large staff and 23 head teachers. So in order to do this properly, we needed more people who could be coaches.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Alison Gambino:
In May 2016, Killara High School entered into the Macquarie Hub Partnership that I mentioned before and funds were made available from the Department of Education which meant we now had money to involve lots more people. Part of this, we had to involve partner schools.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Alison Gambino:
So, rather than try and find schools to be involved, it was an excellent opportunity to actually involve the schools that we already had a very, very strong teaching and learning partnership with.

We decided to use Peer Coaching to completely underpin this program. We had always worked with Penny Verdich from Growth Coaching and worked in very close consultation with her to decide on what the best program was for us to use for this project. Which is why we went with the Peer Coaching Two Day Program. We decided to work with our partner primary schools and work with Macquarie University and we would all complete this program together.

In terms of the teachers at Killara High School, what we did is we actually sent out an expression of interest and said, ‘who would like to do the program’? And that was really successful because only willing parties were there from the start and that's been a key part of this.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'd expect that people would be glad to step up to this. I mean it's helping them develop?

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely. But as with when I did the course, I don't think anybody really understood the impact that it would have.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Alison Gambino:
You don't really know until you do it how fantastic it is.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You don't know until you know.

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely. And I genuinely mean that.

So, what we did, in terms of the partnership with the primary schools, every semester we complete a Teaching and Learning Project, where teachers from each of our six primary schools pair up with a teacher from Killara High School- so we've got a team of 12 teachers and they teach in each other's classrooms.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Wow.

Alison Gambino:
We've done it now for a number of years and it's extremely successful.

We decided this time to make the focus Peer Coaching. Rather than have six teachers, one from each of the schools, we decided to actually involve two teachers from each of the schools because that way there was sustainability when they went back to the schools. So there were two people who could actually practice with each other on Peer Coaching and then work with other teachers in the school.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes. Yes.

Alison Gambino:
When the teachers completed this program, when they completed the Back In School Application that was actually done across the two schools.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Alison Gambino:
The teachers have found it very, very, very helpful. Very, very constructive. And many of the teachers commented that they didn't really understand the data collection. They just wanted teachers to say ... They wanted someone to say, "This is how you need to improve your teaching." As a result of doing this course they now understand how important that is, in terms of taking the next steps to improve their teaching practice.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
And it becomes sustainable.

Alison Gambino:
Yes it definitely becomes sustainable.

And we also included Method Lecturers from Macquarie University because that is part of that partnership. So we're literally all on the same page because a big part of this, with the Macquarie partnership, is actually walking a mile in each other's shoes and understanding what we do at school and what we do at university.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're listening to the Coaching in Education podcast series.

I'm in conversation with Alison Gambino, Deputy Principal of Killara High School in Sydney.

So after that impact across so many levels and people, how has this kind of coaching impacted students in the classroom?

Alison Gambino:
It's really hard for us to say at this point because we're so new in the journey, about exactly how it's impacted. We don't have data to show that. We're a very high performing school. We have excellent results. But in terms of teachers improving their classroom practice and really focusing on what they can do and having an understanding as to how they can improve their practice, it can only have a positive impact on student learning.

For example, say a teacher was focused on ... They identified as a goal - I'd like to improve the number of open-ended questions that I ask in class. Data is collected and then they can have feedback as to, this is how many open-ended questions you actually asked within this particular time frame. This is how the students responded. And they can be coached through, how they can actually improve and do that better.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You must find that those kind of questions, from a student’s point of view are much easier to answer, rather than, "Yes Miss!" "No Miss!" I mean if it's open-ended, world's your oyster I suppose?

Alison Gambino:
They're much easier to answer and the most important thing is they actually lead to student thinking because they have to think about their answer. They can never guess - yes or no. And they're not ... I call it 'chewing and spewing', they can't just regurgitate information-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Is that an official term?

Alison Gambino:
It's my official term! They actually have to think about what they're doing.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah. Do you see lights turning on in their eyes when they, kind of, get that?

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely. It just makes them think and thinking leads to understanding. So-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah. Having gone through this journey with coaching, what kind of advice would you pass on to others embarking on it or considering it, Alison?

Alison Gambino:
I had no idea, as I've said before, what the possibilities were for coaching when we started this and we're only just on the start of this journey. We're not a long way into this journey anyway. You have to have a plan and you have to be flexible. And I talked before ... At every point, we’d consult with Penny Verdich from Growth Coaching as to how we can best make this work and best make use of the money that we're spending because it's a heavy financial investment. We really want to build a coaching culture in the school.

I said before, you need to have a plan but you've got to be very flexible. It's like an action learning project.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Alison Gambino:
So you've always got to pause, evaluate, rethink your strategy. Is it being effective? If it is, keep going. If it's not, what else can you put in place? What can you do differently? Call for volunteers rather than-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Co-opt them-

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Strong arm tactics

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely because they're willing participants from the start

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
They've got to be. Yes.

Alison Gambino:
And you really, really have to provide time and opportunities to embed coaching conversations.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I don't expect you to speak on Penny's behalf but I'm wondering whether it's probably shaping or reshaping her approach to this, as she's seen it ripple through so many levels?

Alison Gambino:
Absolutely. And she has such a good understanding of our school and our context and where we want to go with this.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah. So you said you're not a long way into the journey

Alison Gambino:
Yes

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Is there a ‘what next’ for you? You personally, but also as you've seen in this network of partnerships?

Alison Gambino:
I just want to keep going

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah. Okay

Alison Gambino:
Because I just keep seeing how valuable it is and there hasn't been a single person who's done any of the programs who's said, "There was nothing in that for me."

We're looking at getting everyone together who completed the Peer Coaching Program. So that's the 22 teachers from the other schools, the 16 teachers from Killara High School, the Method Lecturers from Macquarie University - just to share with them where we're up to and where we're going next so that they can actually, not take what we're doing and do it in our school because that never works-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes

Alison Gambino:
But actually think about how they could adapt what we're doing and make it work in their school.

We're working with Macquarie University on the Hub School Initiative. And just an example of one of the things we're doing, at the moment when somebody completes their Practicum, there is no information that can go to the next point because of privacy issues that report has to remain with the person who owns the report.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes of course

Alison Gambino:
So what we're looking at doing is, every student at the end of their Practicum, looking at how they've gone and setting a goal, we will coach them through how they can improve in their next Practicum or when they get their job, something that they really need to focus on and how they can take the next steps to improve.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm sure it's opened up quite a few eyes in Macquarie itself.

Alison Gambino:
Oh absolutely. And they thought the program was fantastic as well.

We're also looking at putting a ... In terms of curriculum, putting an elective line. We're also looking at ways of embedding coaching conversations into Student Well Being Programs and to improve student learning outcomes. We're currently looking at a problem based learning elective line in Year 10, where students will identify a problem and will actually use feedback to take the next steps into solving their problem. So, how can we best use coaching conversations? Because we've now got 44 teachers-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Alison Gambino:
How can we keep going this?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Alison I think yours is a great story especially as it's rippled across so many levels both inside and outside your school.

Thank you so much indeed for sharing your story with us.

Alison Gambino:
Thank you. Thank you, Leigh.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You've been listening to the Growth Coaching International Case Study podcast series. I'm Leigh Hatcher. Check out some of our other great podcasts in this series Inspiring and educational. They're atwww.growthcoaching.com.au